Forums - top tiers in ssf2t! Show all 65 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- top tiers in ssf2t! (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=28676) Posted by kalok on 07:05:2001 06:02 AM: top tiers in ssf2t! ryu? Posted by Rock Bottom on 07:05:2001 07:04 AM: I remember i used to luv playing as T. Hawk. I think hes a top tier. (well in my book hahah) peace. Posted by Nyu_bomber on 07:05:2001 04:02 PM: Top tiers in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo? Off the top of my head....Akuma. Posted by Shuzer on 07:05:2001 04:21 PM: Akuma is pretty much unstoppable, which is why he's banned from US tourneys and blacklisted from Japanese tournies. And IIRC, the top tier other than Akuma was: Ryu(OG and New) OG Sagat New Balrog New Bison Dunno who else would qualify as top tier. OG Ken? Guile? Dhalsim? I know they were good, but not sure if they qualify as top tier Posted by Strider Hiryu on 07:05:2001 05:16 PM: Alright, i kno the diff between OG Sagat and new Sagat, but whats the diff between OG and New Ryu? Posted by WMoose on 07:05:2001 06:42 PM: Why should we bother, all your going to do is reply back with no honda own u u sux honda buttsmoosh sagat for free! Posted by Shuzer on 07:05:2001 06:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by Strider Hiryu Alright, i kno the diff between OG Sagat and new Sagat, but whats the diff between OG and New Ryu? OG Ryu has a faster fireball. IMO, OG Ryu is better for fireball trapping, but New Ryu is better for rushdown(F+Fierce helps him a lot). Posted by Cletus Kasady on 07:05:2001 06:45 PM: OG Ryu gets the slower Jab/faster Fierce FB's like Ken, but loses Supers and juggling J.Strong, IIRC. Might lose a couple other important new normals, too. And I'd consider throwing Vega in there, but I'm no ST expert. Posted by kalok on 07:06:2001 10:46 AM: NOT!!!!!!!!!m.bison is so suck in any sf2 games!!!!![no anti-air]char like ryu,ken,honda and chunli can beat him for free!!!!so how he is top tier.....????? btw,i think sim is top tier! Posted by kalok on 07:06:2001 11:29 AM: new sagat suck! Posted by psx2000 on 07:06:2001 01:13 PM: I dont really like listing tiers for some reason in super turbo jump suit jessse made a good post and point about why he dont like it either . But if i had to list some of the more popular charecters that do really well in tourneys and are good overall charecters then i go with. BALROG O SAGAT N RYU ( some like old for faster and bigger fireballs) but then again almost all matches are good and stuff i love apocs vega if u ever seen it ,its wicked. T Hawk is ranked high in japan but not as high here. In the end i think it boils down to play style the tiers are not that big of a affect on the game Posted by Ryu1999 on 07:06:2001 03:53 PM: wow, chankalok was correct in something for once! :evil: yeah, 'sim owns ST just like he owns in alpha 3. I heard vega beat him though...but i'm no ST expert either. also, i don't know if this was mentioned, but biggest difference for o.ryu and n. ryu (for me anyways) is of course 100% invincible DP. i need my security blanket dammit! i don't remmeber o. ryu's fb being "bigger", but i remember it being a bit faster. read GYL's thread for basically all you want to know about ST Posted by Akumamigo on 07:06:2001 05:41 PM: Everybodys is top tier, that game is really well balanced. Expect the Akumas, they kick ass. But as said before. they are banned to. Posted by shin srwilson on 07:06:2001 06:13 PM: Gouki/Ryu/Ken are top tier to me! Posted by kalok on 07:07:2001 10:42 AM: no!even vega,rog and chun lose to sim master!!!!!!sim is a flame god in st if u meet a sim master once in arcade...[i am sorry to said sim is suck in st before..........he is too make me fear:>:>:> btw,not everyone is balance in st!!!some char is very suck!!!!fei long,blanka and m.bison should be the wrost tiers.... doi koi! Posted by illusion on 07:07:2001 11:15 AM: ..hey i got a bright idea...why don't you start like three different st threads instead of one putting all the q's into one?...oh wait...you already did that stupid shit... later Posted by Last Cetra on 07:08:2001 07:34 AM: Let's go back in time then... who was the top tier on Street Figther I? Ryu or Player2RyuClone? Posted by kalok on 07:08:2001 01:15 PM: gif and fei long are the worst in st! btw,i found that gif jab anti-fireball hand[dp motion plus a punch bottom]had a gd chance to cancel akuma's cheap air-fb|!!!!!!!!!!!i found it when i use akuma against cpu's gif!!!!this is gd for gif!!!!he should not be a meet for akuma!:>:>:> is it true?gif master! Posted by darkumas on 07:08:2001 03:55 PM: Well there really is no top tier in that game. Really there is not. The game is a well balanced game where it comes down to the level of skill each player has with his/her character. A good exammple of this is (new) ryu vs (new) balrog. There are ppl who think that this fight is winnable by ryu hands down and there are some who would say that it is balrogs fight hands down. Well the truth is, its a pretty even turf. Either character can win its just a matter of skill. While ryu can keep balrog at bay at the begining of the match, balrog will eventually get a super bar. It is at this point the match shifts to balrogs favor now he can keep ryu at bay with just the sight of that super meter. That is just one aspect of balance in that game. No one char can solely destroy the other. either character can win at anypoint during the match, it all boils down to who wants it more. DT Posted by kalok on 07:09:2001 03:20 AM: but,the game is not very balance,some char had his/her killers.....e.g.honda vs blanka,chun vs vega,sim vs blanka,balrog vs blanka,guile vs t.hawk and ryu vs ken!!!!!the formar one beat the secound one cheaply...... so,the game is not very balance,also akuma can beat everyone.....so is it really balance? Posted by kalok on 07:09:2001 10:43 AM: is vega the best tier in the game? Posted by Masaka on 07:09:2001 03:17 PM: Oh brother, here goes kalok again. There's been some pretty exhaustive discussion on ST tiers in GYL's ST thread: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...referrerid=4589 It's rather long, but there's some good discussion there, if you can ignore the majority of kaloks interjections :P The thing about tiers in ST, is that any character has a decent chance of winning in the game. Based on past tourney peformance though, you can expect Balrog, O.Sagat and Bison in the top. After that it gets kind of fuzzy. Some people like O.Ken in the top tier, others like Dhalsim or Ryu. There are so many counter characters to consider though, that it's hard to define a concrete top tier, other than Balrog, as he doesn't really have a bad matchup in the game. O.Sagat is a tough matchup just because the machine gun effect is hard to get around for some characters, and there's that tiger uppercut thingy that helps a bit too. Again though, all this has been tossed around, chewed up, and spit out in GYL ST thread. Masaka Posted by Nothingness on 07:09:2001 10:44 PM: my view on tiers Wel ill putmy 3cents in. remember that there are 32 characters here but ill only do the best of each or so.ill ate this based on what ive seen in tourneys. Top tier would be 1 balrog 2 o.sagat 3 o.ken 4 ryu / tier2: 5 vega 6 bison 7 honda 8 fei 9 guile 10 chun 11 dhalsim / tier 3: 12 deejay 13 cammy 14 Thawk 15 zangief 16 blanka. remember there are times when a tier one may have an advantage over a tier one its just to tough torate this. thawk over guile and zangief over balrog are tough matches and tiers can be deceiving. these can alsobe in any order w/in the tiers. and can bebumped up or down depending. id like for them to trakc this at b5. Posted by kalok on 07:10:2001 02:19 AM: yes,blanka is one of the worst in st!his ball recovery is so shit!btw,i think,bison is still worst cos he is the only char had no real ANTI-AIR in the game......he NOT top tier that i want to point this...almost every can beat bison easily!chun,ryu,ken,guile,akuma,vega,honda,etc Posted by roboticus on 07:10:2001 04:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by kalok yes,blanka is one of the worst in st!his ball recovery is so shit!btw,i think,bison is still worst cos he is the only char had no real ANTI-AIR in the game......he NOT top tier that i want to point this...almost every can beat bison easily!chun,ryu,ken,guile,akuma,vega,honda,etc Kalok your posts are annoying, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not reading much of the replies in this thread (though you started it, no?) and the benefit of the doubt that you looked up other threads. Blanka is not bad, his only bad match-up is Balrog. Hands down he does the most dmg in the game. I didn't even know that until the Midwest Tourney. However, to be effective w/Blanka you have to be highly skilled to use him and know Blanka inside out. For instance, to beat Dhalsim, you have to know when you will trade limbs, etc. This one match i saw, Dhalsim out hit Blanka almost 2 to 1, but Blanka still won! Also, Dhalsim is not good b/c of the fb-trap, but it does help a lot. He has very effective drills and slides, and most often his throws. You have to throw like a Banshee w/Dhalsim to win. He and Bison have some of the largest throw ranges in the game. Speaking of Bison, he is not bad either and can be definite top tier, if you had to make one. Bison has huge priority in the air and so does his torpedo and scissor kick. Bison edges a lot of people you mentioned in that list above (which I may get into later, but I have work to do). The reason you think Bison is so bad is b/c you don't know how to play him/haven't seen a good one. Dale Posted by Nothingness on 07:10:2001 07:12 PM: bison Well bison is very good in st.His c fierce and j house prevent a lot of j-ins. also the speedof his standing RH and s-frwd are unmatched. So yes bison has anti air but notlike the dp or flashkick. Heseems to have trouble blocking kens air jump in hurricane, its seems to hit him in the front and the back atthe same time if you try and crosshim up, bison cannot block this at all. Dhalsim imo is great in ST. Many priorites, but itseems that its either feast or famine for him vs every character. Wineasily or lose easily, usually. Posted by Apoc on 07:10:2001 08:53 PM: quote: Originally posted by Masaka Oh brother, here goes kalok again. There's been some pretty exhaustive discussion on ST tiers in GYL's ST thread: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...referrerid=4589 It's rather long, but there's some good discussion there, if you can ignore the majority of kaloks interjections :P The thing about tiers in ST, is that any character has a decent chance of winning in the game. Based on past tourney peformance though, you can expect Balrog, O.Sagat and Bison in the top. After that it gets kind of fuzzy. Some people like O.Ken in the top tier, others like Dhalsim or Ryu. There are so many counter characters to consider though, that it's hard to define a concrete top tier, other than Balrog, as he doesn't really have a bad matchup in the game. O.Sagat is a tough matchup just because the machine gun effect is hard to get around for some characters, and there's that tiger uppercut thingy that helps a bit too. Again though, all this has been tossed around, chewed up, and spit out in GYL ST thread. Masaka I have to disagree here Masaka. Rog does have hard match-ups. But there aren't many players that use his counters well. IMO here are touch match ups for Rog. I know it will be disagreed heavily. heheh Now when you say "bad", that's all a matter of perspective and player actually. Vega:if Rog couldn't infinitely tick Vega after one grab I would say Vega wins actually. The tick is just too good though. Chun Li:the tick helps Rog here too actually. But a good Chun can really keep Rog at bay and cause frustration. Sagat:honestly, you see Rog win this match or always make it close...but I honestly feel that players just don't have this match solid. Sagat wins it imo. Not even a toss up though it looks that way usually. Deejay: Once again the tick helps Rog but getting in on Deejay should really be a problem. Deejay's priorities in this match up seem designed to beat Rog. However, as has been said before, we don't have enough REAL Deejay users to compile their strategies or you would see Deejay as an effective Rog counter character more often. Honda:throw range, charged Oichio, Oichio to dizzy. The strategy is solid in this match and Honda can really put the hurt on Rog. Imo the Rog player must be quick of reflexes to win AND know the strategy to beat Honda. Imo the strategy is very specific. Knowing this the Honda player can take advantage of it. O.Ken:Ppl underuse the fierce dp in this match and usually aren't fast enough to really utilize it. A ken with Bruce Lee Reflexes can give Rog a 50/50 match easily. And when Rog isn't used to getting all of his rushes RH'd and Dp(not to mention the straight up hurricane cross-up), needless to say some Rog's will lose this match at B5 guaranteed. Sim:50/50 match. All in favor of Sim until Rog has super. Rog has to be close to win and Sim is the great keeper outter:P(that should be a real word:P ) I'll stop here cuz really my ST knowledge is so lacking I need the refreshers as much as anyone. In fact I think most of the knowledge isn't in the public yet since ST came out when the internet first started getting popular. Just not enough info online I agree. Which also keeps tourneys real though. Nowadays anyone can go online and become better than they naturally are based on the assets of their intelligence. SRK/IRC/Internet is like sucking from other brains:P Which is why, I think, that leet ST players can do well w/o practice because they had their own game back int he day. And Cali players learned a lot from watching eachother in tourneys since WW...some things never changed by ST. In fact, now I'm starting to think there are engine issues we don't fully gather yet. I've been messing around on DC finding stuff that just doesn't make sense. Which I probably never cared to check for lack of a training mode. Try to break the game down freshly and by B5 I'm sure there will be new and exciting strategies as well as things that just make you go hmmm. =) AND if you can actually practice and learn with someone...well, I feel that there is plenty that was never learned on ST. The good SSF2 players simply carried their shit over with enhancements. Kinda like I did with Dudley on 3s. I never really played the game or tried to learn much new but I play 2i dudley with 2 new moves and my Dudley could make you think I know how to really play 3s. When really I play 2i ON 3s(if that makes sense) heheh. So the knowledge the leet players have on ST is mostly from ssf2 with added moves like supers. I mean Rog was a no brainer when he got a low charge. Right off the bat I was winning with him...his headbutt was faster and you had it as back up after rushes now AND a dope super. Point is...I don't even think the elite ST players know the game as well as well all felt we did. The knowledge accumulated from years of sf2 upgrades. Just the other day I found some new stuff with Vega that I never had before. And he's one of my main characters! Sadly I haven't been able to transfer the trick to other charge characters yet so it might just be Vega specific however, to me that tells me there may be a ton of character specific things not found yet. One more thing to keep in mind. Until Valle wanted to learn and until SHGL got ST back and Watson started playing again the tourneys were all played on complete rust and lately ST is seeming more and more like a new game as it attracts ppl with its' false sense of not being complicated to play. I mean it's not, but the intracasies are all substantial because the engine is very structured making nuances strategically valuable. Someone could cause an upset just from trying to dive deep into the game come b5. Things on this game aren't set in stone anymore. Not for me anyway. heheh. Ok, well maybe some things are:P K...done babbling. Apoc. Posted by Masaka on 07:10:2001 10:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc I have to disagree here Masaka. Rog does have hard match-ups. But there aren't many players that use his counters well. IMO here are touch match ups for Rog. I know it will be disagreed heavily. heheh Now when you say "bad", that's all a matter of perspective and player actually. I probably should have clarified that a bit. I didn't mean to say that Rog had an easy time in all matchups, but I still don't think that there are any matches in the game that he has big time disadvantages in. Almost every character, with one or two exceptions (see below) has to work so much harder, or rely on totally precise play, or a change in gameplan, in order to win. And universially, as soon as Rog as a Super, that strategy has to change. quote: Vega:if Rog couldn't infinitely tick Vega after one grab I would say Vega wins actually. The tick is just too good though. Chun Li:the tick helps Rog here too actually. But a good Chun can really keep Rog at bay and cause frustration. No arguements whatsoever. quote: Sagat:honestly, you see Rog win this match or always make it close...but I honestly feel that players just don't have this match solid. Sagat wins it imo. Not even a toss up though it looks that way usually. Here's the exception I was mentioning I'll concede this point to a degree. I think part of it (and this applies to Sim as well) is that O.Sagat can stick to his main gameplan of playing machine gun to keep Balrog out. The same with Sim, he just has to work a bit harder. Almost every Rog/O.Sagat match has been really close (we're talking high level play here, of course). It hinges on if Rog is able to stay in Sagat's face and/or build up meter, or if Sagat can keep Rog out long enough. I think Sagat does have an advantage here, however, I'm still not convinced that Rog loses this outright. quote: Deejay: Once again the tick helps Rog but getting in on Deejay should really be a problem. Deejay's priorities in this match up seem designed to beat Rog. However, as has been said before, we don't have enough REAL Deejay users to compile their strategies or you would see Deejay as an effective Rog counter character more often. After MWC, I learned a few things about DJ/Rog that leads me to agree with you big time. It's still a tough match for DJ, but I think its not the total washout I used to think it was. quote: I'll stop here cuz really my ST knowledge is so lacking I need the refreshers as much as anyone. In fact I think most of the knowledge isn't in the public yet since ST came out when the internet first started getting popular. Just not enough info online I agree. Which also keeps tourneys real though. Nowadays anyone can go online and become better than they naturally are based on the assets of their intelligence. SRK/IRC/Internet is like sucking from other brains:P Which is why, I think, that leet ST players can do well w/o practice because they had their own game back int he day. And Cali players learned a lot from watching eachother in tourneys since WW...some things never changed by ST. This is a big point, imho. ST dropped out of the scene right as the Internet was getting big, and information and videos were becoming more popular and available, exploding right around the time Alpha 2 was released. ST is considered old news by a majority of players today. Even people who are just getting into it are more interested in finding out what "works" rather than being interested in developing new tactics, and are learning it for the novelty. I can understand that, the game *is* old. Because the game is out of circulation and it's very hard to develop new strategies without regular, good comp, the same strategies that worked 5 years ago are still working. quote: One more thing to keep in mind. Until Valle wanted to learn and until SHGL got ST back and Watson started playing again the tourneys were all played on complete rust and lately ST is seeming more and more like a new game as it attracts ppl with its' false sense of not being complicated to play. I mean it's not, but the intracasies are all substantial because the engine is very structured making nuances strategically valuable. Someone could cause an upset just from trying to dive deep into the game come b5. Things on this game aren't set in stone anymore. Not for me anyway. heheh. Ok, well maybe some things are:P K...done babbling. Apoc. I think ST is one of the harder games to get into nowadays. The lack of regular competition for most folks turns them away, which is a shame. It seems that a lot of players are intimidated by ST as well. At both ECC And MWC, I was listening to people watching the game, and i caught several conversations like: "Hey are you playing in this tourney?" *points at ST* "Hell no, the people who've been playing that know it inside and out. What chance do I stand?" "No joke. Hey hear about the new Ironman infinite using Sonson?" And so on. As you pointed out Apoc, I don't think everybody knows as much about ST as we all thought. Old players stand to learn as much as new players I think. New players bring a totally different perspective to the game than we already have. The more people play, the more new stuff has a chance of coming out. And the more interesting the major tournaments will be Masaka Posted by margalis on 07:10:2001 11:27 PM: A few things. 1: Apoc, you have mentioned now a few times some weird engine issues. I know you don't want to give away any secrets that apply to Vega, but are there any you can mention? 2: Honda is really good against anyone who has to come to him. His jab headbutt is great AA and great anti-ground from close, and totally safe if blocked. Zangief, T. Hawk, Blanka, Vega all have very tough matches against him IMO, probably Cammy, Fei and some other as well, although I'm not sure about these. 3: There are a *lot* of things people don't know about. For example, I have been playing around with Blanka and there are a ton of things that are not common knowledge. For example: His super can be comboed after. (Not sure how to get it consitently) His super can hit *5* times instead of 4, for 60%+ damage. His parabolic ball attack can hit multiple times and it is *NOT* a glitch. His parabolic ball does not always bounce off the opponent, but sometimes continues its path. This is totally reproduceable and not a glitch at all. His parabolic ball is kind of useful! His best combo is not low forward x2, ball attack. It is stand strong, strong double headbutt. Same damage, much safer. Some of these are things people know about, but I've never heard of anyone really incorporating them into their game, and I have yet to find anyone who knows how to combo after the super consistently, but I have heard that people *can* do it consistently. Not only are many characters not understood, but character matchups are also generally not well understood. Posted by kalok on 07:11:2001 01:38 AM: sim kill rog!btw,wht is ochio throw can be stroed means???:> Posted by KungfuJoe on 07:11:2001 02:06 AM: I thought balrog beats ryu Posted by shadowcharlie on 07:11:2001 02:48 AM: o sagat ilove that fool Posted by kalok on 07:11:2001 02:54 AM: rog own ryu!old.sagat is sucker for honda!! and can someone tell me wht is ochio throw charge is for??? Posted by margalis on 07:11:2001 03:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by kalok rog own ryu!old.sagat is sucker for honda!! and can someone tell me wht is ochio throw charge is for??? You do the motion for the throw, but don't press a button. Then wait in defensive crouch...from there when you press a button the throw comes out. So you can do the motion, wait for a while, then do the throw. This is seconhand info, so I don't know details. Posted by omni on 07:11:2001 04:02 AM: After having played ST for as long as I have (longer than I would admit to a girl on a first date) I have come to the conclusion of a few things. The first being...Balrog is damn good. BUT he isn't as good as I think he is generally considered. Hell, I used to even consider him the best in the game but I don't anymore. Almost anyone with a projectile gives him a hard time until he has meter. Hell, even with meter you can sometimes still get around the AHVB of ST. The 2nd being...I think N.Dhalsim is the best game in the character now. I honestly don't think Dhalsim loses to anyone now. He has no natural counter character so to speak. I keep hearing Blanka gives him a hard time, but I can't play Blanka nor Dhalsim, so I have no idea how this match really is. A lot of people claim Vega stops him, but I don't necessarily buy this either. Yes, the wall dive is really good - but so are low tigers against balrog. I would like to think there is more to the match (if SF boils down to just 2 buttons and or 2 moves, then it's time for me to stop playing) and from what I have seen - there is more to the match, but there are simply no good N.Dhalsim players left to take advantage of this in America. Shirts is an amazing Dhalsim player, but he only plays O.Dhalsim. The third and last thing I have realized is that Americans know very little about ST. I don't care if Choi/Valle did rock the Japanese with O.Sagat - all that proves is we concentrated on one character that they ignored. If you have had the opportunity to watch TeamUSA vs. TeamJPN ST footage - you will see that there is sooo much going on that we knew nothing of. From things like how god damn good Guile's cross up is to stuff like Bison torpedo'ing into the corner on purpose to make it end prematurely and keep on attack after that. I still don't even know how in the hell you do low short, low short into super with Shotos - nor can I get a concrete answer out of anyone on how to do it. There are so many other small nuances that you never hear discussed, such as the fact that T.Hawk can buffer his jumping Jab, that it just makes me wonder how much we really do and don't know. Bleh. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by kalok on 07:11:2001 04:42 AM: thx margalis!but,no one is fool enough to goto honda...... i think the throw charge is for when u are blocking someone who hit u,u can use it as a reverse...... yes,n.sim is GREAT in st......i saw he even beat vega!but,i think he is the HARDEST char to MASTERD in st.....so,i dun see many sim master yet....:<:<:<:<:<: Posted by Apoc on 07:11:2001 12:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by omni After having played ST for as long as I have (longer than I would admit to a girl on a first date) I have come to the conclusion of a few things. The first being...Balrog is damn good. BUT he isn't as good as I think he is generally considered. Hell, I used to even consider him the best in the game but I don't anymore. Almost anyone with a projectile gives him a hard time until he has meter. Hell, even with meter you can sometimes still get around the AHVB of ST. The 2nd being...I think N.Dhalsim is the best game in the character now. I honestly don't think Dhalsim loses to anyone now. He has no natural counter character so to speak. I keep hearing Blanka gives him a hard time, but I can't play Blanka nor Dhalsim, so I have no idea how this match really is. A lot of people claim Vega stops him, but I don't necessarily buy this either. Yes, the wall dive is really good - but so are low tigers against balrog. I would like to think there is more to the match (if SF boils down to just 2 buttons and or 2 moves, then it's time for me to stop playing) and from what I have seen - there is more to the match, but there are simply no good N.Dhalsim players left to take advantage of this in America. Shirts is an amazing Dhalsim player, but he only plays O.Dhalsim. The third and last thing I have realized is that Americans know very little about ST. I don't care if Choi/Valle did rock the Japanese with O.Sagat - all that proves is we concentrated on one character that they ignored. If you have had the opportunity to watch TeamUSA vs. TeamJPN ST footage - you will see that there is sooo much going on that we knew nothing of. From things like how god damn good Guile's cross up is to stuff like Bison torpedo'ing into the corner on purpose to make it end prematurely and keep on attack after that. I still don't even know how in the hell you do low short, low short into super with Shotos - nor can I get a concrete answer out of anyone on how to do it. There are so many other small nuances that you never hear discussed, such as the fact that T.Hawk can buffer his jumping Jab, that it just makes me wonder how much we really do and don't know. Bleh. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com K...first off since I made my first #@^ brownies tonight and I am hella...well if you know me you know=) Shame on me Anyway, I think I proved Vega beats Dhalsim to ppl. Not saying that it's completely true or not...just that it miiiiiiighty cool to think that you influenced ppl's opinion with you gameplay. Which was so not as well as it should've been anyway. So that's how I'm taking it so I can say I ROCK! And then, hey, I knew about all that shit:P Last but not least:cr.short,down to down forward+short,forward,down,down forward,forward+P. K, I broke it down. Now bust that shit fast:P Now tell me how to combo jabs into the flash kick with Guile precisely! =D C'mon. Hook it up! Apoc. Posted by Nothingness on 07:11:2001 01:38 PM: Dahlsim vulnerabilities Dhalsim has at least 3 counter characters. Vega!!!, chunli and Cammy! especially cammy! she was tailor made to beat Dhalsim , again you must play this right,or dhalsim can win. jstu like any match. Vega is just too fast and has many air priorites over sim. Chunli has her c strong which stops many sim attacks on the ground. And her jshort and jforward. Ive tried this on spence but he seems to knowways of getting around it. Its not thecharcter it the person behind the character. as ffor the blanka stuff yes you can combo off ofthe superball, but you must wait and holdthe ball until you opponent is just about to get offof the ground after he has previously been knocked down. this works everytime. As you approach him you will hit him w/o knocking him down then do headbut into ball or cany combo of your choice the tzwtapes hadthe headbutt after ball. Posted by darkumas on 07:11:2001 05:43 PM: ST is a very complex game, more complex than most ppl think. To say that there is a tier system as this point is ludacris given the fact that more things are being discovered at an alarming rate in this game on a daily basis. About the only true factual information we have is that there are definetly some bad matchups in the game, but that comes with any fighting game. IMO right now ST is at a point where we are learning how to play it. All the characters are being replayed and being put thru rigorous testing to find out what they can "really do". As a few ppl have mentioned before that they once thought rog was all powerful, those opinions are changing now. I hear ppl say Ryu was too good, now that is also changing. O.Sagat is awesome now that is changing. The reason for all this is because ppl are still finding new and inventive ways to play with his or her character subsequently making them look better than they once were thought to be. If i were to give my heart felt opinion on ST i would have to say that. "we are in a learning stage" To properly get a tier system in ST means learning every single char upside down inside in every situation possible against all the other characters. A task that is being done right now if im not mistaken. To sum up my rambling, what we are seeing right now in ST is a popularity contest more so than a tier system being worked up and put into perspective. I believe we need to be focused on getting that tier system in place and getting this issue put to rest rather than making postst that say ryu owns cammy without know all that there is to know about both characters. DT Posted by margalis on 07:11:2001 08:05 PM: Omni: Is the Team USA vs. Team Japan footage anywhere around still? I hear that to do the shoto low shorts into super, you chain the first few low shorts, pause, then do the next low short as a link instead of a chain...second hand info, you've probably heard the same. As far as Blanka vs. Dhalsim, it is very hard for Sim to knock Blanka out of the air. His slides are not effective and his standing kicks don't have the right angle. Furthermore, the ball attack is very useful againt Dhalsim. (Yes, you heard me) *Trade* ball attacks with limbs, you come out way ahead on damage. I'd be willing to bet that electricity works well on limbs also, although I haven't ever thought to try it. Finally, I think I remember someone (Maxstah?) saying that they had doen a T. Hawk juggle of jumping jab, Condor Dive... Nothingness: You can combo after the ball attack even if you start the ball attack from far away, and they don't have to be getting up. I've done it exactly one time, but you can do it. Posted by kalok on 07:12:2001 02:59 AM: no!sim kill blanka!he can fierce punch after the ball bounce back! Posted by margalis on 07:12:2001 03:15 AM: quote: Originally posted by kalok no!sim kill blanka!he can fierce punch after the ball bounce back! Use the ball to *trade* with limbs. You purposely get hit at the same time you do the ball. You take a hit, he takes a hit for more damage. Posted by BigDaddyWatts on 07:12:2001 04:38 AM: okay guys. here is the real answer to all your ST questions.. New Dhalsim is the best. hands down.... no one can contest this and I am 100% sure of it. New Ryu comes in a close second just for the fact he can beat almost every character and doesnt lose badly to any character. New Bison comes in at 3rd, and then O. Sagat and Balrog. There are many counter matches in this game so those who claim it is well rounded are not very correct. Old Ryu isnt as good as many of you believe. Fact being, his jumping fierce sucks nuts. EXAMPLE: Ryu jumps backwards to get space from Bison. Bison does a flame to hit Ryu out of the air. Old Ryu gets hit clean while New Ryu hits Bison and at worst will trade.... got it?? Super fireball eliminates people from firing back while you trap them and rushing fierce is very useful... I have played this game and now it very well. Don't make stupid comments about my opinion and take my word for it. DHALSIM is godly... for sure.... not unbeatable... just very, very good... mike Posted by Ryu1999 on 07:12:2001 04:56 AM: Re: okay guys. here is the real answer to all your ST questions.. quote: Originally posted by BigDaddyWatts Old Ryu isnt as good as many of you believe. Fact being, his jumping fierce sucks nuts. EXAMPLE: Ryu jumps backwards to get space from Bison. Bison does a flame to hit Ryu out of the air. Old Ryu gets hit clean while New Ryu hits Bison and at worst will trade.... got it?? Super fireball eliminates people from firing back while you trap them and rushing fierce is very useful... I have played this game and now it very well. Don't make stupid comments about my opinion and take my word for it. DHALSIM is godly... for sure.... not unbeatable... just very, very good... i'm not going to make "stupid comments", at least i hope i'm not, but i was wondering what new ryu's invincibility properties for his dp in ST. if it doens't even have at least alpha 2's properties (which are more clear cut than a3's IMO), wouldn't he be worse off against 'sim than old ryu. i know its not possible to predict a good 'sim player's limb patterns (i use that in a loose sense), but should the oppurtunity arise, since 'sim has godly priority, wouldn't new ryu's "psychic dp" be beaten out whereas o. ryu's would have hit cleanly? i haven't played many good 'sim players in any game, but from what i played with maxstah on kaillera, it was mostly about pissing people off by snuffing them with extended limbs from full screen and slides. in one game, i had an amazing 80% success rate with psychic dp's, but then i went shoryuken-happy and lost handily. so anyways, i have no disagreement that dhalshim rules this game, but i personally'd like to think that o. ryu is better than you give credit for, but then again, you're the master, and i'm a newbie so... Posted by Apoc on 07:12:2001 01:02 PM: K...I forgot yet another tough match or perhaps bad for Balrog. Zangief. Though I think I have this match down without much problem I think it's only because the Gief players in general lately don't seem to realize that Rog has a very real anti-gief strategy that he didn't have in previous games. But make no mistake...all in all, this is a bad match for Rog if the Gief knows how to inch and be patient. Apoc. Posted by omni on 07:12:2001 07:19 PM: I typed this up yetserday, but forgot to hit send before I took off, so we'll try this again. Margalis: The footage that I saw was when I stayed at Choi's house for Ink's wedding and Ponder brought over his camera with over 16 unlabeled tapes. I just watched a few of them every night before I went to bed. Sometimes there was really good stuff such as 3rd strike footage at More, other times it was nothing but them walking around Ropongi shopping. Editing all of that stuff down to something useable would take forever. From what I can see/tell - there were far better Japanese players than were on TeamJPN and since it was a tournament, you got to see a lot more crazy stuff during the practice stuff. To fully answer your question, aside from that huge 50 mb file, that is the only captured stuff that I know of. Apoc: Can you actually do low short, low short super with shotos? I can do low short into super just fine (with both Ryu and Ken). I can even do low short, low short just fine. But I cannot for the life of me do low short, low short super. No one I know or have talked to about this can do it. If you can do it - show me next time you are in So Cal or perhaps at B5 if I don't see you by then. Watson: Wowsers, can't believe me and Mike agree on something aside from the fact that I'm cuter than he is ^_^ Gotta go. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by white ninja on 07:12:2001 07:31 PM: I could wipe the floor with bruce i mean fei long he kicks ass what are you guys talking about bottom tier. Posted by roboticus on 07:12:2001 08:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by margalis Use the ball to *trade* with limbs. You purposely get hit at the same time you do the ball. You take a hit, he takes a hit for more damage. I already made this commment, but I think this concept is beyond him. However, even if one is that good w/Blanka, can Blanka really be that bad of a match-up for Dhalsim? My guess is yes, b/c it just does not appear that Dhalsim does much dmg against Blanka. Dale Posted by NKI on 07:12:2001 08:37 PM: Whoa...just the other day I was thinking about how fucking good Sim is since he has no really bad matches, and now I see this. Weird... Anyway, I'm actually considering learning him just for the shear lack of good Sim players we have in the US. I can only think of two, maybe three people who have really impressive Sims. But then again, I'm only 18, so I can't be good at ST for a little while anyway... Also, Ken can do cr.Short x2, then link the super. It's hella easy. I have NO clue how you do the second cr.Short cancelled into super. I tried for a long time but I could never get two shorts to link - only chain. -Nick P.S.: Hrm...Apoc hoarding secret ST info...sounds kinda shady to me. Posted by roboticus on 07:12:2001 08:40 PM: Re: Re: okay guys. here is the real answer to all your ST questions.. quote: Originally posted by Ryu1999 i'm not going to make "stupid comments", at least i hope i'm not, but i was wondering what new ryu's invincibility properties for his dp in ST. imo, N.Ryu's invulnerability really starts to lack at the peak. I'm not sure b/c the controllers I play on suck -- I'm not sure if the fb is coming out or the dp. However, I have seen my reversal dps hit. I have _not_ heard "shory-" and stuff. Also, when I do see my dps get stuffed is when I'm already in the air, most noticeable vs. Cammy and Vega (clean hits). If I had to say anything, N.Ryu's dp is on par/probably a little stronger than A3. On another note, I also give O.Ryu a little more credit. Faster foot speed, faster/slower fbs, and invulnerable dps make the fb trap really tight. N.Ryu is good for spacing, but in terms of making least mistakes, playing the old-fashioned, tight-ass fb-trap makes less mistakes then rushing down and spacing correctly. Dale Posted by roboticus on 07:12:2001 08:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc K...I forgot yet another tough match or perhaps bad for Balrog. Zangief. Though I think I have this match down without much problem I think it's only because the Gief players in general lately don't seem to realize that Rog has a very real anti-gief strategy that he didn't have in previous games. But make no mistake...all in all, this is a bad match for Rog if the Gief knows how to inch and be patient. Apoc. If you don't mind, how is this match-up bad for Rog. All Rogs kill my Zangief (then again, I play badly against ROg in general), also, I'm not patient. It seems, especially at MWC, any wins my Gief got was trying to sucker people into the FAB (I got this to work surprisingly more than I figured, but I was putting a beating on the cabinet -- poor technique). Suckering people in the FAB is poor, poor strategy -- basically, eating a throw or a knockdown and FABing the wake-up game. Thanks, Dale Posted by Apoc on 07:13:2001 12:34 AM: quote: Originally posted by omni I typed this up yetserday, but forgot to hit send before I took off, so we'll try this again. Margalis: The footage that I saw was when I stayed at Choi's house for Ink's wedding and Ponder brought over his camera with over 16 unlabeled tapes. I just watched a few of them every night before I went to bed. Sometimes there was really good stuff such as 3rd strike footage at More, other times it was nothing but them walking around Ropongi shopping. Editing all of that stuff down to something useable would take forever. From what I can see/tell - there were far better Japanese players than were on TeamJPN and since it was a tournament, you got to see a lot more crazy stuff during the practice stuff. To fully answer your question, aside from that huge 50 mb file, that is the only captured stuff that I know of. Apoc: Can you actually do low short, low short super with shotos? I can do low short into super just fine (with both Ryu and Ken). I can even do low short, low short just fine. But I cannot for the life of me do low short, low short super. No one I know or have talked to about this can do it. If you can do it - show me next time you are in So Cal or perhaps at B5 if I don't see you by then. Watson: Wowsers, can't believe me and Mike agree on something aside from the fact that I'm cuter than he is ^_^ Gotta go. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Actually I don't know for sure at this point. Haven't done anything requiring a joystick in a while:P But I know that's how to do it and given some tries I could definately get it out. But gimme a dc so I don't have to waste a half hour just charging. The problem ur having is most likely chaining the short. Try Guile's jabs to flashkick super while chaining. I'm almost positive you HAVE to link the short to get the super out. Chaining it cancels the effect I think which is why most Guile's opt to do standing jab...sure it looks better, but it also adds the pause so as not to chain it making a link-making the super come out. I'm way tired right now, hope I'm making sense. I coulda prolly told you this online. heheh I could be wrong though so don't hold me to it heheh. Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 07:13:2001 12:46 AM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus If you don't mind, how is this match-up bad for Rog. All Rogs kill my Zangief (then again, I play badly against ROg in general), also, I'm not patient. It seems, especially at MWC, any wins my Gief got was trying to sucker people into the FAB (I got this to work surprisingly more than I figured, but I was putting a beating on the cabinet -- poor technique). Suckering people in the FAB is poor, poor strategy -- basically, eating a throw or a knockdown and FABing the wake-up game. Thanks, Dale From a certain range Gief's clothesline will nail 99% of all Rog moves. You can actually get into this range and do it randomly backing up the recovery with an spd. Trouble is getting into this range. Actually though most Rog's don't know how to avoid being ranged like this anyway. Once Rog is cornered just be reflexive with the clothesline. He's not gonna trip you because the clothesline hits his RH and all of his ducking dashes from this range. He's not gonna jump because if he magically counters the clotheline high he gets 360 or 720 and most likely won't be able to hit the clothesline anyway. He can't walk up and throw you on recovery. He can't headbutt because gief just walks back then forward avoiding it then hitting it or capitalizing on the headbutt when it whiffs in a number of ways. So basically the whole match is a battle of ranging but once Gief is in that right range(corner or not) Rog is not able to attack effectively at all. Which means he has to jump back to gain a better range and eventually Gief can edge him into the corner. If you don't KNOW this match a good gief should rape Rog. But as I stated before Rog has a very real strategy against Gief here. Whereas in HF it was MUCH more difficult using strong to uppercut under all clotheslines, heheh. Rog had some fun shiet to do in this match in that game as well. But gief was much more advantaged. This match on ST I'd say is 50/50. But no "good" giefs lately. If there were I'm sure a lot of ppl would feel gief wins the match. Apoc. Posted by kalok on 07:13:2001 02:05 AM: yes!gif is rog's pain in ass......gif can get a free SPD after blaocking rog sc......and his S.forward work well against the low rushing punch! Posted by dublo7 on 07:13:2001 03:49 AM: quote: Originally posted by omni After having played ST for as long as I have (longer than I would admit to a girl on a first date) I have come to the conclusion of a few things. The first being...Balrog is damn good. BUT he isn't as good as I think he is generally considered. (snip) The 2nd being...I think N.Dhalsim is the best game in the character now. I honestly don't think Dhalsim loses to anyone now. He has no natural counter character so to speak. I keep hearing Blanka gives him a hard time, but I can't play Blanka nor Dhalsim, so I have no idea how this match really is. A lot of people claim Vega stops him, but I don't necessarily buy this either. Yes, the wall dive is really good - but so are low tigers against balrog. I would like to think there is more to the match (if SF boils down to just 2 buttons and or 2 moves, then it's time for me to stop playing) and from what I have seen - there is more to the match, but there are simply no good N.Dhalsim players left to take advantage of this in America. Shirts is an amazing Dhalsim player, but he only plays O.Dhalsim. The third and last thing I have realized is that Americans know very little about ST. I don't care if Choi/Valle did rock the Japanese with O.Sagat - all that proves is we concentrated on one character that they ignored. If you have had the opportunity to watch TeamUSA vs. TeamJPN ST footage - you will see that there is sooo much going on that we knew nothing of. From things like how god damn good Guile's cross up is to stuff like Bison torpedo'ing into the corner on purpose to make it end prematurely and keep on attack after that. I still don't even know how in the hell you do low short, low short into super with Shotos - nor can I get a concrete answer out of anyone on how to do it. There are so many other small nuances that you never hear discussed, such as the fact that T.Hawk can buffer his jumping Jab, that it just makes me wonder how much we really do and don't know. Bleh. Derek Daniels well. seems like lotta strat talk goin on. here goes. actually, i'd hope that the girl *plays* st. then i'll take her on a date. ;^) unlikley though. wish i could see this japan/usa footage... cause if it can change usa st mindset on rog and sim (amongst others, i presume)it must be pretty amazing, something i've always been sure of. but to know its been sitting in someone's camera for so long, yet 3s and a3 footage has been "released" make me wonder if the public could dream of seeing it. i'd feel like a 20 year old discovering that jackie chan's first movies weren't 'police story' or 'cannonball run'. i've always put all the bosses (except nsagat), oken, nryu, guile and of course my fav sim up there in tier 1 for st. but we all know if thawk gets 2 slams u're dead, dj has _too_ many cross up combos, to be cornered by bruce is hell, and so on for everyone else in st. unfortunately, in tournies, the focus is on counter chars and so noone focusses on how to play their counter chars, they just move on to the best counter-counter char. see last years mwc (2k) finals for an example. now i'm not sure but i heard that the japan tournies don't allow counter chars - u just tell the tourney dir who u're using and that's that. if u're honda going vs a shoto, u've gotta pull out the anti-shoto strats, not switch to rog/osagat/sim/akuma(!). and so u're forced to practice that match, as long as u think its your hardest match (!) in order to win it. now while i'd be ridiculously naive to believe that's the only reason why the japanese have really gone 'deep'into each st char (they seem to play it a wee bit more than over here in north america, and they have a bigger pool of talented players ) i think its a big factor. cause one has to go pretty deep into a st char to get a win vs his/her counter char. sure i have my bias since i'm essentially a one-char guy, but u can't blame an old guy for trying, eh? but enuf o dat. blanka vs sim: i actually lost a game in a match vs blanka in ecc. i was pissed. but the blanka guy was doing what he had to do - get in and combo me to death. now i didn't get comboed, but i did get bit- at least 70% of all life lost was to the bite. that hold takes off a lot, just like all of blankas moves - he has always hit hard, and that works well vs a weakling like sim. in fact, i'll use blanka in a3 _just_ b/c he hits hard enough to make matches tough plus his speed in the air or ground is in the top 5. but that's not enough to make him good vs his best counter chars, so capcom had to make another set of rules and different game to make him top tier (read: ratio 1, cvs) the blanka ball trades nicely with sim limbs, but sim never really has to poke at blanka anyway, balnka has to get in, and while sim's gr normals and slide at best trade or are simply rebuffed, sim's air normals, throw and hold, stuff blanka's game. and i haven't even teleported yet. its been like that since hf and is virtually the same in a3, 'cept the juggling system is in sim's favour. back in the day i had to play that match at least 10x a night. sim wins, at least 8-2. feel free to use blanka in tourney play - drool- the only game vega is not a counter char for sim is cvs and world warrior. and u couldn't get that match in ww, n e waz. vega (and all other good sim coutner chars) take away sim's air priority and fb kick traps. sim has to be ultra-precise, and rely on his noogie trap. ideally u can watch shirts match vs apoc (and mine vs apoc too!) soon on masaka's mwc video site to illustrate how mismatched this is. the only reason i have a chance is b/c i've been playing this match for the past 6 years. otherwise it'd be a true slaughter. shirts match isn't a slaughter by far either. he got several precise hits that i can only imageine someone 'deep'it no their char can get. plus some really far away teleports that i can only attribute to insane timing or a ?new attribute for old sim. unfortunately (i always cheer for sim, eh!) vegas super, and air priority can be too much. i don't want to give away the results without ya watching...i could play that match all day, all month...and still be making notes. its a fav match o mine. i wish i could get shirts using new sim, but with the reflexes he has with old, i don't see it to be a need for him. it took me a good month of 24/7 play to learn new sim 7 yrs ago, it'd take me a year now to switch. there's tons to the vega/sim match but i don't really know where to begin or end on that topic. what else... cammy is anti-sim b/c of her jump-in strong and the combo hooligan (as is evil vs all other fb chars). fortunately, i have a buddy of mine back in t.o. that played me that way all the time back in the day - i gotta find him this weekend. wish i could see this japanese new sim on the usa vs japan footage; i'm wondering what's 'new' that has made him so good. hell, they prolly have headbutts into his super down pat! as for sim vs chun... i used to see this a lot but the shun sin seem to be just seth, now. this match go a lot easier in st for sim witht he drills, and controllable limbs - now hecan actually fight here close, instead of being stuck in block stun by her st jabs! its the same reason why chun can rape x sim up close in a3 - too bad she has a tough time getting in that game. still in favour of sim though, esp with no supers powered up in st. oh yeah, an advantage for sim is no real bread and butter practical combos to worry about, at least i don't know of any for sim. its not an adv if u want to pull off fancy combos though alright i'm dizzy....time to eat! maska: email your snailmail addy. check pm's. p.s. raps sign ad, j williams. with aw and soon to come, #15 signed, its time to prepare for the east conf title....above the 49th parallel. uhhhh, the jays aren't doing anything. cya Posted by kalok on 07:13:2001 10:33 AM: yes!sim is great in st.....he can beat rog!he can keep rog away with his strong and fierce punch! btw,how u time the gif green hand to cancel air fb from akuma?pls help. Posted by roboticus on 07:13:2001 06:00 PM: quote: Originally posted by kalok yes!sim is great in st.....he can beat rog!he can keep rog away with his strong and fierce punch! btw,how u time the gif green hand to cancel air fb from akuma?pls help. This is not effective Zangief strategy against Akuma, and Zangief is not a counter character to Akuma. However, to answer your question, just remember that the fb hits high, and that the green hand is only above Zangief for a second, so, you would have to Green Hand a little bit earlier to negate the air-fb. Even though you may be able to time this, if you're close enough to attack, like 3 out of 10 Zangief can connect w/a move. Most of the time, Akuma can land and reversal hk (imo, the easiest reversal move in the game). Zangief's only chance is to SPD Akuma as he lands, but if Gief is a bit too slow or too fast, he gets hit (2 hits off the hk and prolly 2 of the jab dp). Then, Akuma takes himself out of range and air-fbs Zangief to death. Not a fun match-up, definitely not a counter character. Posted by Apoc on 07:13:2001 10:13 PM: Why not make a thread for tactics vs. Akuma. Cuz he's banned in tournaments. So no tourney player really cares. He's not gonna be at B5 so really, strategically, discussing him is pointless in this thread and it sucks to think there is something new here when I check my email and it's basically nothing. Apoc. Posted by kalok on 07:14:2001 02:18 AM: i just posted a tons of anti akuma air fb move before...... Posted by Iceman on 07:14:2001 05:59 AM: Hey Masaka. This fall, get back to kicking my ass on regular basis and I might just get good at this game Posted by kalok on 07:15:2001 02:13 AM: is sim top tier? Posted by Fei Ken on 07:15:2001 12:40 PM: i don't reckon Fei Long is bottom tier. I don't thin you could judge unless you've played a good fei player. his wrekka kens do a massive amount of a damage, i think he could hold his own. Posted by kalok on 07:16:2001 03:03 AM: it is sorry to say he is really low tier even he is played by a master......almost everyone can beat him or al least had a better winning chance:ryu,guile,honda,blanka,rog,chun,cammy,vega...... Posted by Apoc on 07:19:2001 07:24 AM: quote: Originally posted by margalis A few things. 1: Apoc, you have mentioned now a few times some weird engine issues. I know you don't want to give away any secrets that apply to Vega, but are there any you can mention? Sorry so late. I think I may start a thread soon for putting things previously not known there. But anything that directly regards Vega I am saving for B5. And the most major thing I've found DOES seem to apply to Vega only so far. Cept I've been lazy lately not testing anything. We'll see. I'm gonna spend an hour or so on it tonight...at least I'm planning to, heheh. Then I'll post a new thread. Thing is if I find stuff with Vega and Rog...I'll prolly save it for me:P But as I play other characters to mess around I'm quite positive there is lotz to be found now. We'll see. I'll post soon. Then I hope others dive into it again and find interesting tidbits. Even lil things can change a whole match. Apoc. Posted by kalok on 07:19:2001 03:05 PM: vega is no.1? All times are GMT. The time now is 11:44 PM. Show all 65 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.